There's one moment in the pod when Naomi KLEIN is referred to as a public figure who's become increasingly conspiracy-leaning, but was Naomi WOLF was meant to be the subject? She's the journalist/author who pivoted hard from 3rd wave feminism to palling around with steve bannon.
Perfect, though, since Klein's "Doppelganger" is about the experience of constantly being mistaken for Wolf leading her to investigate conspiracy and paranoia, especially online and in leftist spaces. Highly recommend as a companion to this episode!
Oh my god we went back and forth in the moment trying to make sure we got the right Naomi and STILL FAILED! And as you note, even more important because of Doppleganger!!!
I think related to the patriarchy theory is the verifiable ways that society and institutions dismiss women’s expertise and knowledge, esp when we comment on issues considered the domain of men. The more that comes out about Rs political manoeuvrings since Reagan years, the more I think about how Hilary Clinton was VILIFIED in the 90s for talking about a vast right wing conspiracy during the whole Vince Foster era. Or when I think about where we are now with reproductive rights and how people responded to women predicting this very situation. Our personal experiences with gaslighting matter (which is how i interpreted the discussion about women vs our docs), but we’ve all seen consequential IRL criminal conspiracies and/or bad faith actors pull off major things (thank you ProPublica). Connected but not totally on point to the above, IMO some of the conspiracy theories that white women uphold provide us with ways to placate patriarchy and hopefully sidestep its impact thru upholding white supremacy.
The idea that patriarchy partially fuels women's interest in conspiracy is really interesting. I'm not sure if it's true broadly, but there's a new conspiracy theory among fringe-y Latter-day Saints saying that Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles killed Joseph Smith because he was a committed monogamist. According to the conspiracy theory, they then created reams of documents portraying him as a polygamist.
A lot of the people involved are women, and one of their arguments is that Joseph Smith was a prophet and a true prophet of God could never treat women like that. It definitely reads as an attempt to deal with the patriarchy of early Mormonism without having to deal with it.
finally became a subscriber so I could share that all i could think about during this episode is how the three key ingredients of conspiracies are exactly aligned with fundamentalist beliefs: everything is connected (it's all part of god's plan even if you can't see it), accidents don't happen (ditto, and destiny), and nothing is at it seems (we know the real way to heaven, you don't.) gahhhh!
Bless everyone jumping in to defend Klein’s honour and cred! Came here to recommend her book Doppleganger as a way to think about the parallels between conspiracy theory thinking and organized social movements with an analysis of power (ie, how else to explain patriarchy). I had been saying for years that the far right conspiracy machine was a fun house mirror of the left and, like, there but for the grace of intersectional feminism go I. Doppleganger book articulated what I was feeling.
From a pediatrician's perspective...I deal with a lot of anti-vax conspiracies. I feel that the moms I work with are susceptible because they trust their friends as good sources of info. And this goes back to culture norms in adolescence where girls depend on social groups based on talking about relationships. The problem is the definition of "friend" in the social media landscape, where it is easy to have "friends" who don't really know each other very well.
There's one moment in the pod when Naomi KLEIN is referred to as a public figure who's become increasingly conspiracy-leaning, but was Naomi WOLF was meant to be the subject? She's the journalist/author who pivoted hard from 3rd wave feminism to palling around with steve bannon.
Perfect, though, since Klein's "Doppelganger" is about the experience of constantly being mistaken for Wolf leading her to investigate conspiracy and paranoia, especially online and in leftist spaces. Highly recommend as a companion to this episode!
Oh my god we went back and forth in the moment trying to make sure we got the right Naomi and STILL FAILED! And as you note, even more important because of Doppleganger!!!
Omg when Cristen said "Naomi Wolf, no, not Naomi Wolf," I was like haha yeah that's an actor
That's Naomi WATTS
I was listening to this episode on the plane and literally drafted this exact same comment. Had to jump in to defend NK!
Otherwise, loved the episode!!
Melody figured out how to do an edit, thank you all for flagging!
From @\twlldun on Twitter:
If your Naomi be Klein
Some caution in dealing be fine
But if your Naomi be Wolf
Oof baby Oof
(As a mnemonic for future reference, lol)
I think related to the patriarchy theory is the verifiable ways that society and institutions dismiss women’s expertise and knowledge, esp when we comment on issues considered the domain of men. The more that comes out about Rs political manoeuvrings since Reagan years, the more I think about how Hilary Clinton was VILIFIED in the 90s for talking about a vast right wing conspiracy during the whole Vince Foster era. Or when I think about where we are now with reproductive rights and how people responded to women predicting this very situation. Our personal experiences with gaslighting matter (which is how i interpreted the discussion about women vs our docs), but we’ve all seen consequential IRL criminal conspiracies and/or bad faith actors pull off major things (thank you ProPublica). Connected but not totally on point to the above, IMO some of the conspiracy theories that white women uphold provide us with ways to placate patriarchy and hopefully sidestep its impact thru upholding white supremacy.
The idea that patriarchy partially fuels women's interest in conspiracy is really interesting. I'm not sure if it's true broadly, but there's a new conspiracy theory among fringe-y Latter-day Saints saying that Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles killed Joseph Smith because he was a committed monogamist. According to the conspiracy theory, they then created reams of documents portraying him as a polygamist.
A lot of the people involved are women, and one of their arguments is that Joseph Smith was a prophet and a true prophet of God could never treat women like that. It definitely reads as an attempt to deal with the patriarchy of early Mormonism without having to deal with it.
finally became a subscriber so I could share that all i could think about during this episode is how the three key ingredients of conspiracies are exactly aligned with fundamentalist beliefs: everything is connected (it's all part of god's plan even if you can't see it), accidents don't happen (ditto, and destiny), and nothing is at it seems (we know the real way to heaven, you don't.) gahhhh!
Omggggg
also i need the dolomites deets, so happy to be here : )
Bless everyone jumping in to defend Klein’s honour and cred! Came here to recommend her book Doppleganger as a way to think about the parallels between conspiracy theory thinking and organized social movements with an analysis of power (ie, how else to explain patriarchy). I had been saying for years that the far right conspiracy machine was a fun house mirror of the left and, like, there but for the grace of intersectional feminism go I. Doppleganger book articulated what I was feeling.
From a pediatrician's perspective...I deal with a lot of anti-vax conspiracies. I feel that the moms I work with are susceptible because they trust their friends as good sources of info. And this goes back to culture norms in adolescence where girls depend on social groups based on talking about relationships. The problem is the definition of "friend" in the social media landscape, where it is easy to have "friends" who don't really know each other very well.